"I would rather fail with my best effort than fail with my everyday effort." That's Michelle Collins in a sentence — and also exactly what she did when she walked into a client meeting that was about to go off the rails with her interview skills, her storytelling instincts, and a 200-page spec document that she created." Michelle Collins is the Chief Operating Officer at CodeBaby, where she leads the company's work in emotionally responsive AI avatars across healthcare, education, customer service, and hospitality. Her path here is the definition of non-linear: she edited the Daily Illini, interned at the New York Times Digital, contributed to a Pulitzer Prize-winning series at the Chicago Tribune, spent a decade in marketing technology, and somehow ended up front-row for the rise of large language models. She calls herself a "highly technical non-techie" — and it's the most accurate job description you'll ever hear. In this episode, Michelle talks about what it actually feels like to walk into every new challenge with both "I don't belong here" and "I know I can figure this out" running at the same time — and why that's not a contradiction, it's a strategy. She also shares the moment she stopped feeling like an imposter, what the music lesson analogy taught her about learning hard things, and why the best advice she can give anyone is to fail more — on purpose, with intention, and without stopping.
Michelle Collins didn't take the obvious path to becoming COO of an AI company. She took the interesting one — through journalism, database reporting, HTML, marketing technology, and eventually to the front seat of the conversational AI revolution. Today she leads CodeBaby's work in emotionally responsive digital avatars, writes about ethical AI, and still considers herself a "highly technical non-techie." Which, honestly, is exactly the kind of person you want running the intersection of technology and human connection.
What We Get Into
About Michelle Collins
Michelle Collins is the Chief Operating Officer at CodeBaby, leading the company's work in conversational AI and emotionally responsive digital avatars across healthcare, education, customer service, and hospitality. She began her career in journalism — editing the Daily Illini, interning at New York Times Digital, and contributing to the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gateway to Gridlock series at the Chicago Tribune. After a decade-plus in marketing technology, she found her way to the intersection of AI and human connection, where she now writes about ethical AI and what it actually takes to make automation feel like someone's listening.
Resources & Organizations Mentioned
Connect with The Imposter Roster
Website: theimposterroster.com
YouTube: @TheImposterRosterPodcast
The Imposter Roster (00:01)
Hello and welcome to The Impostor Roster. Most people pick a lane, technology or storytelling, but Michelle Collins decided the interesting stuff happens in the merge. Michelle is the chief operating officer at CodeBaby where she leads the company's work in conversational AI and digital humans across healthcare, education, customer service and hospitality. She joined in 2018.
and has helped guide CodeBaby's evolution from scripted chat bot experiences into real-time, emotionally responsive avatars, which, if you think about it, is basically the arc from puppet to person. Her path here is anything but straight. She started in journalism, edited the Daily Illini, interned at New York Times Digital, and reported for the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gateway to Gridlock series at the Chicago Tribune.
From there, she spent a decade plus in marketing technology before landing at the intersection of AI and human connection. Michelle writes about ethical AI and what it actually takes to make automation feel like someone's listening. Fellow imposters and certified badasses, please welcome Michelle Collins. Yay, she's here, she's here. I am very, very happy that you have joined me, Michelle, in Full disclosure, I know Michelle and I have worked with Michelle and that's why I want to talk to Michelle because you will enjoy listening to her as well. You will really enjoy this experience because honestly Michelle, I've known you a while, have I not?
Michelle (01:44)
You have. Yeah, we've known each other for several years now.
The Imposter Roster (01:47)
Yeah, how did I not know you wrote something for a Pulitzer Prize winning series? How did I not know that?
Michelle (01:57)
I think it's just one of those things, you know, I was a contributor on it. There were probably fifty, a hundred people that worked on the series. And you don't wanna walk around with maybe feeling like you're stealing valor. But I did get the email from the group and everything saying I was part of it. So yeah, no, it's just it's one of those things. Plus it was it feels like it was a lifetime ago. but yeah, it was a really, really cool experience.
The Imposter Roster (02:21)
Well, you do know that if I had anything to do with launching a rocket into space,
Michelle (02:26)
Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (02:27)
everyone on this planet would know about it. So I just think that's really super cool. And so when
Michelle (02:32)
Well thank you. Thanks.
The Imposter Roster (02:35)
you were a little girl, what was it that you initially wanted to do?
Michelle (02:44)
I think I I had two different thoughts of what I wanted to do. I think I wanted to be a lawyer, just because I really enjoyed logical things and logic puzzles and stuff like that. and then I kind of got bitten by the bug in high school. I was really fortunate my high school had a
pretty high powered radio station for a high school and a a good broadcasting program. So from my freshman year on, I took r radio broadcasting and television production in high school and was bitten by the bug and thought I wanted a career in broadcast journalism. and then when I went to college, my next door neighbor in the dorms, her
former roommate was an editor at the newspaper and they were doing kind of a lot a one day, two day kind of walk in open house. And I said, Well, let's give this a try and just kind of fell in love with it from there.
The Imposter Roster (03:44)
So, I mean, you've got quite the vocabulary and quite the imagination and definitely a way with
Michelle (03:50)
Thanks.
The Imposter Roster (03:51)
words. So this does not surprise me. But I'm curious then, somehow you found your way into conversational AI, which
Michelle (04:04)
Mm-hmm.
The Imposter Roster (04:04)
I mean, I guess that makes sense. You know, if you think about it, storytelling and then conversational AI, which you know, I know a little something about. Just
Michelle (04:12)
Well that
The Imposter Roster (04:13)
a bit.
How did you find yourself in that though?
Michelle (04:16)
So I think and I'm so I've got so much gratitude. I feel like I've been at the right place at the right time several times in my life. So as you mentioned, the Daily Illini I did my undergrad in grad school at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. While I was there, a little thing called the Mosaic browser came out. we would
The Imposter Roster (04:38)
Hahaha.
Michelle (04:39)
be in the I was a poly-sci major for undergrad and we would be in the lab in Lincoln.
And hall, and there would be signs on there saying, you know, hey, click around on this cool new thing and let us know, give us some feedback. And as it turned out, the students were sort of the beta testing lab for the very first web browser. so you know, having that experience and then, you know, having kind of fellow nerd friends that are like, well, this is how we would create a web page, and this is, you know, learning HTML. you know, that was sort of a
Fun kind of new thing to learn for Ray into something new. So I was editor in chief of my senior year, and then I stuck around for a year for grad school for journalism. And during that year, I took the paper print version and created the first online version of it. So that was sort of the first time that I was lucky there. That helped me kind of open some doors with digital journalism. So the internship at the New York Times, working, ultimately becoming multimedia.
media editor for the tribune. And then at the Tribune also having the opportunity to help out with some database-based reporting back before a lot of people were doing that sort of thing. So just really having a lot of exposure to tech all along the way, whether it was multimedia or, you know, HTML right from the beginning, learning how to do different digitization. Yeah. And so I parlayed that when I decided to make the jump from journalism and got a job as a business analyst or freelanced and then a job as a business analyst.
So essentially interviewing clients, interviewing stakeholders, taking my writing skills, my interviewing skills, and being able to essentially take all the ingredients and make some soup and functional specs as they were. And the more and more that I worked on these things, worked with the tech team,
always had a natural curiosity for just about everything and I figured I could best advise and answer client questions and put together specs if I learned more and more about the underlying structure of the technology.
And so I was really fortunate there again to work with actually several really brilliant women who were in our tech team who were very open-minded and saying, yeah, you know, this is how you would do this. And you know, you've got a little bit of tech background. I'd had some Linux admin experience. So I knew my way around the system a little bit. That was sort of a a benefit of of growing up in the U of I. Everybody had to access their email that first year or from multiple years via Unix Shell
The Imposter Roster (07:14)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (07:14)
command line. So just always felt really comfortable in that whole world and learn more and more. So one of the things that was natural to learn a lot more about was the database side of things. and then just as needs grew, some coding here and there. I would never consider myself a full developer, but I know enough to be dangerous and AI tools now are making me quite, quite dangerous. So
The Imposter Roster (07:38)
they
are. They actually are. And I have to, you I gotta let you people know out there. She has built some incredible things. Yes, it's with the help of quad and various tools. But here's the thing. Michelle is so good at taking these various pieces and figuring out how do I make these things work together? And also more importantly, correct me if I'm wrong. It's the whole like the emotional quotient.
portion of avatars, AI in general, and that means a lot to you. having
Michelle (08:15)
Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (08:15)
that technical background that you have and you pair it with your passion, your passion for finding a way for us to work with AI and more importantly, how AI actually aids us as humans is what
makes you so unique in your how you got to where you were and the framework that you probably didn't realize you were creating at the time that you were creating it. Yes.
Michelle (08:48)
Yeah, I mean and I
didn't and you know, it kinda brings me to the second really good right place at the right time to be at this intersection where, you know, conversational AI, especially in large language models, since their very first days I've had the opportunity to be right up front, you know, front seat for all of that. And that's the perfect blending of everything that I'd had the technological aspect, the communication aspect, the really where I consider my strengths.
to be and I think this is comes from the journalism background is being able to ask the right questions, really understand what the meaning behind those questions are, if anybody asks me or the meaning behind the responses, and then turn that into something that communicates that well and appropriately. So for journalism, it was talking to, you know, the subjects of articles that I would work with, be working with, and being able to, you know, really make their voice and
And their their joie de vive come through in what I was writing. but in this world of, you know, large language models or AI in general, that prompting of figuring out like what how do I anticipate where I kind of think that this is gonna go, ask the right questions to get it to go there, but truly listen to the answers and be flexible enough to know what's that next question.
And it's really funny and this kinda might be an aside, but I just sort of have gone about
my interactions with AI from that lens, thinking that's how everybody did it. so one of the ways when I'm working on a project is I will say, well, what's the end goal I want this to be? What's the function? What do I want it to do for people? What do I want it to evoke in people? and then really formatting or formulating what it's doing around that kind of end more nebulous goal. And when I talk to Tyler, our
CTO, he said, no, what he ends up doing is going through and telling Claude, well, these are the tools that we have, and this is sort of the general ends, but this is how I want you to do this. So I think it's just a really interesting thing coming from somebody who's purely a technologist to coming from my perspective where it's the end product and storytelling and what it's solving and what what it accomplishes and how it makes you feel while it's accomplishing it, that there's two very different ways of going about this whole practice.
The Imposter Roster (11:22)
You know, as a software engineer and more specifically conversation engineer, I definitely go Tyler's route, but I really like your approach. And that's what I mean is it's there's so many things that when I do talk to you, you just, I don't want to say a novel approach, but it is a novel approach. I want to say that your
perception is different but in a way that I could say, ooh, I can use that. And it actually enhances how I do what I do.
Michelle (11:59)
I think for me too and there's you know, I've always considered myself a very, very technical non techie, if that makes sense. And
The Imposter Roster (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle (12:10)
you know, I'm not gonna down
play what I do know, but I also know what I don't do, what I can't do, that there are people much more qualified than I. And that's been a running theme kind of throughout my career is I want to surround myself with people who know the things that I don't know better than I do. You know, I think there's two different ways of approaching this, right? Some people surround themselves with people who are yes people who who, you know, just let you kind of lead them around. And that's the very last thing I want to do. I want
Everybody around me to know things that I don't know. And I wanna both challenge but also know my place and you know, to kind of take my ego out of it. So if I do something wrong or if I mess something up, like that's a learning experience. That's an opportunity. But I think from that perspective, it's given me a a way, an opportunity to
be able to go in and just do things kind of on my own and not the, you know, ask forgiveness later kind of methodology, but the
The Imposter Roster (13:11)
Right.
Michelle (13:12)
let's see if this works and if it doesn't, okay, I'll admit it didn't work and I'm willing to change course.
The Imposter Roster (13:17)
You know, that takes a lot of confidence to though confidence to know that you don't know and confidence to say, okay, I know I don't know this isn't going to hurt anybody. So let me just give this a whirl, right?
Michelle (13:28)
Right. Yeah.
Maybe I waste a few tokens, but you know, it's Yeah. Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (13:31)
But it is what it is. So
obviously I'm going to ask you, there must be something in your various incarnations in this lifetime in which you might have felt like, I don't know if I should be here. You I don't know if I can do this. And
Michelle (13:52)
Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (13:53)
I would think, you know, in journalism, certainly in tech.
in AI, know, there's tech, know, the development stuff, but then there's the AI portion. So there's a, to me, there's a lot of avenues where you could have very potentially felt like, okay, I think I'm going to go in a different way, because I don't know that I'm smart enough, good enough, whatever. Any stories for us?
Michelle (14:22)
I think I don't think there's been a single either career or new thing that I've learned in my life that I haven't taken on with both the combination of I don't belong here, but also I know I can figure this out. and I think and it's funny, I'll I'll even go back because I was thinking about just this kind of thought earlier today is
If kids have the opportunity to learn a musical instrument, I think it's one of the best tools you can give them because learning a musical instrument for everybody but like savants is the most frustrating thing in the entire world when you start. You're making horrific sounds. If you're playing a wood instrument, you're likely getting really lightheaded. You know, maybe like I played the flute first and like maybe you can't even get it to make a sound at all. And you just sit there
And you're just like, I am never gonna learn this. And then you look and you're like, wait a second, I learned that. And I got pretty good at that. And every time I've been in a situation where I feel completely overwhelmed by something new that I have to learn, thinking, god, I'm never gonna learn this. I think back and it was like you have before. And so every single thing I go into with that combination of just like you don't belong here, you don't know anything about this, you know, you're gonna especially if it's in a public more public forum, like you're gonna have to
Bird dog your way through this. and you know, just then figuring out. So here's a perfect, I think a perfect example to your imposter syndrome. I was working at a previous job about 15 years ago, and we were really struggling. we had Volkswagen as a client of ours, and I was in charge of a project that did an online ad builder. we I
They had been frustrated with some of the just challenges with the technology and they brought in somebody to the department who was brand new and had come from a consulting background and was essentially like we were warned, like he's gonna come in here and this we might lose our job with this, he's gonna clean things up. And I was like, Okay. So I was just like, Well, what would I do in this situation? And I over-planned and over-engineered and I put together probably like a 200-page spec document and process me.
management document and everything that was just like, if this is gonna come down to me to figure this out and to deliver this, I at the very least want there to be like this is in my this is everything that's in my brain on paper, like the Bible for this. And this was before generative AI, so this was some work.
And, you know, I had to fight some people internally who were like, you're gonna overwhelm them. This is too much. And so we didn't bring it into the meeting at first. And this guy is just calling us to the carpet. And I'm sitting there and I was like, Can I just can I just show you something really quickly? Cause he was like, How do we know that it's gonna work this time and what's different from last time? And I came in there and I went to my my office and I got this giant book and I put it on the table and I was like, This is the blueprint that I've created. And the look on his face went from
totally PO'd and frustrated with the situation to like this.
This, you get it. You get it. And the entire relationship on bringing that giant notebook thing, you know, the three-ring binder, three-inch, three-ring binder, whatever,
The Imposter Roster (17:47)
Yeah.
Michelle (17:48)
completely changed for the rest of the relationship with the client. And I think it was that whole thing of just like, ugh, I'm gonna be in here. I have even done the thing that I think is the way to go to protect us and to save this business and all of that. And everybody internally is telling me, no, no, no. And then just bucking all of that when this guy was irritated.
with us leaving, not even telling everybody what I was gonna do, going and getting this book and putting it in front of him. I think it was like I was an imposter until that moment that I was like, wait a second. I was on the right path here. Like I had the right things in mind. I should trust myself more in these situations and fight harder for that type of thing. So
The Imposter Roster (18:30)
So I kind of want to break that down a little bit because,
Michelle (18:32)
Sure. Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (18:35)
you know, for anyone listening, one of the questions they might ask is how did you get to or what thoughts you kind of described with thoughts, but I don't know if we can make it even more granular, but how was it that you just said, you know, if I'm going to have to stand behind this product, that, that, that.
Even getting to that point, a lot of times we are locked in fear. We don't even get there because we're like, immediately the wall of I'm an imposter goes up and you never even get to like, all right, if I'm going to have to defend myself, cause we feel like I can't defend myself. I don't have the smarts to defend myself. How would you break that down? What if, I know it's been a while, but what might have gone through your mind when you
decided I'm gonna prepare for like, I guess the worst.
Michelle (19:34)
So my thought was that at the very least, this was a really worthwhile exercise. that I think the problem was is I believed them. Like there were problems in the products. We weren't we weren't delivering everything that we could be delivering. And my management style is always more coach than it is micromanager.
But I feel like it this had kind of gotten away from us somewhat. There were too many cooks in the kitchen. You know, people were going to the dev team and asking for this or making this request. And we had some change requests. But there was just a lot of
spaghetti happening and not you know not because of the amazing team that we had on development but just the r reality sometimes of you know having a multi-tenant system you're trying to serve all these different clients with all these different needs that somehow nothing ever gets just stop for a second. Let's hold on, let's figure this out. And so my thought was is even if this doesn't end up being valuable for them and they walk away, we had other clients that were using it and I knew it would be a valuable exercise.
For us to have all of this and to be able to kind of improve the core product that we had. and I wanted to bring that in there because, you know, I knew enough about somebody who'd come from a consulting background to know that they you can't give somebody who's a consultant too much documentation. and I wanted to have that. I wanted to bring it in. I wanted that to be the showcase from the outset of this meeting and you know, got overridden.
But I, you know, I believed that my instinct was right on that. And so when what everybody else wanted to try wasn't working, I was like, well, we're gonna lose this at this point. You know, we are this meeting is going terribly. They don't trust us. Nothing they're hearing from us is changing that. And so it was sort of the Hail Mary to come in here and just be like, here's the book. And it worked.
The Imposter Roster (21:38)
You
Michelle (21:39)
But I think, you know, there's so there's something to be said, I guess, and it to answer your question.
for the strength you get when there's nothing left to lose. You know, and recognizing that moment and being willing to take a risk in that moment instead of just hoping that you can be nice or that, you know, people will be empathetic and maybe, you know, make the nice decision. And
it doesn't work that way in business. You know, people are always trying to CYA and th everybody has somebody above and below them that's always kind of on their heels and checking what they do and you know, if you screw up and it's on somebody else's rep excuse me, reputation,
they're they're not gonna put themselves on the line. So it's recognizing when you've got nothing left to lose and then saying, I gotta I gotta take the shot here. I gotta trust my instinct and go with it. And again, if you miss the shot, well, you were didn't have much chance of make of scoring anyway. So
The Imposter Roster (22:39)
Well, that's the thing is even if you can see that this is going to probably go south if we don't change something and the others don't see that,
Michelle (22:50)
Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (22:51)
that's where some courage has to come up where you say, well, you all don't see it, but I see it. And at the end of it, it does seem like what I'm hearing in here is one part is when I guess we get that feeling. So even if you feel like an apostar and
You get that feeling like, know I can make a difference here, but you're afraid to speak up. One part of that is just taking a moment, just stopping for a minute saying, okay, what do we actually have here? And being real.
Michelle (23:25)
I think to add to it, I am extremely socially awkward. I mean, I feel like an imposter every time I walk into any social situation, anything where where I get introduced with a lot of flair. Thank you for the introduction, by the way.
The Imposter Roster (23:42)
You're welcome.
Michelle (23:43)
you know, and that I think has led me to really
try to study people's reactions and responses and try to figure out like on a very conscious level, like what are they thinking? What are they, what's their next move? What would my next move be if I was in this situation? What would I say next? You know? And I think that and like really making the effort to read people gives me often a good sense when things are about to go south in a way that I feel like a lot of
salespeople maybe who are eternally optimistic might be like, no, this is we just gotta say the right thing here. We've got to and it's like, no, they're that's this is off the chains. Like they're not happy. This isn't landing. Like we have to change course. It's that bravery to change course and not just go with, you know what, I maybe I made the same pitch 15 other times before and it worked. But this 16th time, if it's not working
I gotta try something else. You know, you gotta just you gotta be willing to scrap it and say, I would rather fail with my best effort than fail with my everyday effort.
The Imposter Roster (24:58)
yeah, you just, you really don't want to regret. Cause you know how many times I'm sure you've experienced this. It's like, I really think this is the problem. You don't speak up and some short time down the road, somebody else says, I really think that, and my God, that was the answer. Everybody's just, you know, singing their praises and you're like, I thought of it three weeks ago. You know?
Michelle (25:19)
Right. Or
as a woman in tech, you said it three weeks ago and nobody listened to you. The man says it and all of a sudden he's the genius, but yeah. That's a whole other imposter syndrome situation, yeah.
The Imposter Roster (25:24)
Yeah, Okay, that's a whole nother episode MC Yeah, it's
like I saw her hackles go up. Okay better stop talking about that Can't help it
Michelle (25:38)
Yeah. No, it's yeah. No, it's
you know, that is a whole other imposter syndrome though. And especially so that's a really that's a common theme for me because, you know, like I said, I'm a highly technical non technologist. especially going into any kind of
high tech situation where it's a mostly male audience is I know they're gonna be scrutinizing every single thing about my credentials as it is. I'll be lucky if they don't ask me some gotcha question about code or something. and it this certainly doesn't happen with the team that I work with now, but I've had it happen many, many, many times in the past. So that imposter syndrome is just there immediately. And you know, so that's why I'm just like this is my role, this is my lane. I happily swerve some
times but but I know what I don't know and you know I think knowing what you don't know and knowing how to listen and learn is one of the most important things to kind of use that imposter syndrome to your benefit of yeah maybe I am over my skis a little bit here but that's okay. This is a learning opportunity. I just need to make sure that I'm representing myself appropriately so I don't get called out in a negative way.
The Imposter Roster (26:57)
Well, and you know how to use your resources anyway. So if you don't know something, you're very good at, you know, information seeking. But I'll tell you, you know, with respect to people wanting to, know, given that you're saying you're very technical while being non-technical, that's why I'm always blown away when I hear about various projects on which you're working. like, what?
Michelle (27:18)
Thank you.
The Imposter Roster (27:19)
I mean, what? So it's very impressive. But as you know, I've been in software my entire life.
And I still feel that even with degrees and what I do now, I mean like the AI and I still feel that because yes, you are not wrong. People will test you and, and I, you know, I don't, I, I'm not quite sure why we're like this, but you know, technical people, said, Hmm, really? Well, do you know how to? It's like, no, cause that's not what I'm supposed to be doing right now.
Michelle (27:52)
And I get
it. Like I get gatekeeping when you've put in a lot of effort
The Imposter Roster (27:56)
Yeah.
Michelle (27:56)
to learn something. You know, it's especially frustrating if, you know, and I know it's gotta be really frustrating right now, in fact, to have this conversation for a lot of developers to see what's happening with AI right now.
The Imposter Roster (28:10)
Yeah.
Michelle (28:10)
And I think there's two very distinct camps. You know, there's
The Imposter Roster (28:13)
Yeah.
Michelle (28:13)
the camp that is saying, you know, I bring value to this, you can't replace me. And there's the camp that's saying the coding
Like I'm
The Imposter Roster (28:24)
Yes!
Michelle (28:24)
consuming repetitive part of my job. The part of my job I love the most is inventing and figuring out
The Imposter Roster (28:30)
Yes.
Michelle (28:30)
systems and solving problems. And the code part was just the technical nitty-gritty thing that was in my toolbox. and so, you know, mo thankfully most of the folks that I work with in tech have taken the latter position and are really excited to embrace the tools and have been really happy to have me embrace the tools that I can to to be able to output
product. and I mean and it's a testament to just how incredible some of these tools are now like Claude Code and some of the models, whether it's Opus or now Fable and the level at which they're able to produce code and test it and create their own unit tests and deliver things that are stunning. that would take the most, you know, seasoned developers months and months and months is, you know, it could be a two or three day pro project now.
The Imposter Roster (29:22)
Well, that's the thing. I am a seasoned developer and you're the one who will say, Hey, did you know that mythos can do blah, blah, blah or a fable? And it's like, no, no, should I? I mean, yeah, that's what it's so, I love that.
Michelle (29:34)
Well and it's because Well and that's the thing is 'cause
I always have to be looking for other tools, right? Like in my toolbox is not mastery of JavaScript or, you know, I do have somewhat of a mastery of SQL, so it'll be I'll
I'll be honest
The Imposter Roster (29:47)
Okay.
Michelle (29:47)
about that. Like I I'm comfortable with my knowledge of SQL, but of most programming languages or Python, like none of those are in my toolbox. so I have to rely on other tools for that. And that's where the coding tools are coming in. You know, I know I'm fairly competent at Linux Admin, but you know, when it comes to SID or AUK or any kind of like scripting, I was like, ugh, yeah, I can do it, but like you know, why do I want to spend 45 minutes figuring out, you know, regular expression?
To get something where Claude can do this for me much more accurately in 15 seconds. You know, so I think it's it's finding those tools and realizing, and it's also saying, you know, like the tools that I do have, if it's SQL or you know, any of the the DevOps types of stuff that I do know, I got better things to do than to do some of that stuff, to sit there and, you know, reinstall.
I don't know, you know, the latest version of my sequel or, you know, anything like that. Like I'd just I'd rather be working on things that are much more creative than just the busy work stuff. So I'm excited to have
more tools in my toolkit that I can use. And I think that's why I'm always suggesting to you, like Christine, try this. This is incredible.
The Imposter Roster (31:08)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (31:09)
This is amazing. It's easy. You can do this. This is how you'll set it up. You know, here's how you can do it. Claude can help you set it up yourself. Like, I want everybody to have all those tools. Like, look, I'm I'm a realist when it comes to AI of realizing that we have
We need regulation. We have a huge terrifying
risk of there being bad actors who do horrible things or of this stuff all going amok. But I also truly believe that we are standing on technology here that has such potential to do so much good, whether it's finding cures for diseases
The Imposter Roster (31:50)
Yeah.
Michelle (31:50)
or helping to alleviate, you know, caregiver shortages or support, you know, mental health care s support services shortages.
to help combat loneliness, to just and to you know, cooking healthier or managing budget resources better. Like there are so many ways that this can be used for good that
The Imposter Roster (32:17)
Yes.
Michelle (32:18)
I'm just so excited about it. And it's it's interesting because my social media feeds that I follow are about ninety percent anti-AI. People so excited. I'm never gonna use generative AI in my life. That's AI slop, this and that. And I get some of it. Like I
I understand and I agree with like, look, you know, we wanted AI to do our laundry and do the stuff we didn't want to do. We didn't want it to do the art and the creative stuff.
The Imposter Roster (32:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle (32:44)
But I'm a big believer in it doing the busy work stuff so I can create. And
I feel like AI has been an incredible tool to enable that type of creation. And it gives me a sense, though, when I'm talking to, and I you know, I'm sure you've run into them, the anti-AI AI people will hear none of it. It is, no, you're awful, you're ruining the world, you're dumping water into the ground. Like, that's not how it works. and
The Imposter Roster (33:15)
yeah.
Michelle (33:15)
every time I go into those situations to say,
I think there are some things that you're slightly misinformed on. I don't blame you for having the ideas and thoughts and frustrations that you have. However, then I feel like an imposter because it's instantly they're all like, well, you you work in AI. Like you want to take everybody's jobs. And it's like, you know, fear is real and I don't
The irony is I should feel less like an imposter than they should in that.
The Imposter Roster (33:48)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (33:48)
But I f yeah. I don't want to say anything that's gonna get myself in trouble because I think a lot of people's fear is coming from a well meaning, earnest place. but I
And I think a big part of the fear is coming from the fact that there are so many kind of oligarch type folks who are in
The Imposter Roster (34:08)
Yeah.
Michelle (34:08)
seeming decision making positions on all of this. but there's there are gaps in knowledge and
The Imposter Roster (34:19)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (34:19)
the people who should feel like imposters don't and the people who shouldn't feel like imposters in this in that field do, I feel like.
The Imposter Roster (34:27)
No,
that's absolutely true. And I do want to point out just like, you know, things about code baby, you know, ethical AI, there are ethic communities out there, ethics groups that
Michelle (34:42)
yeah.
The Imposter Roster (34:42)
none of us, whether you're into AI or not, nobody wants to die a fiery death because of the robots. No one wants that. So
Michelle (34:50)
Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (34:51)
there are definitely groups out there saying, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, I love AI. I also want to stay alive.
So don't worry, we're all
Michelle (34:57)
Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (34:57)
looking into this stuff, right?
Michelle (34:59)
Well, and the other thing is too, is you know, the toothpaste is out of the tube.
The Imposter Roster (35:03)
Yeah.
Michelle (35:04)
and if the good guys don't keep up with the AI, if we're just like, No, I'm not touching this, I'm gonna stand here on a moral ground that I'm not touching this, then it's just gonna be the bad guys that are gonna have it. And that's not the way we that's not the way we try to create a better
The Imposter Roster (35:17)
That's a good point.
Michelle (35:20)
world.
The Imposter Roster (35:21)
Gosh, that's a good point. So I'm curious, if you were to give a single piece of advice to someone who is battling some sort of fear, something that would make them feel less than in, well, work world or otherwise, I guess, what would you suggest to that person to
Help them.
get to another level within themselves so they can keep moving forward.
Michelle (35:56)
Fail more. Absolutely fail more. And if it's in private or with people that
The Imposter Roster (36:01)
Yeah.
Michelle (36:02)
you trust, push yourself enough so you're failing. I go back often when you and I were both trying to learn. So Chris and I were working on conversational AI and Google had just released a product called Dialog Flow CX. There was maybe three or four videos out there on how to use this thing. It was confusing.
you know, nobody there were no tutorials on it. And I had sat there
God, for what felt like a week or two just pounding my head against the wall, reading the limited documentation there was, trying things, it failing, trying things, it failing, before it finally started making sense. And then about a month or two after that, Christine, you started learning it and you were like, I am never ever going to learn this. I
The Imposter Roster (36:51)
Yes!
Michelle (36:53)
don't know who did this or who made this. I'm like, I agree with you on that one there. Like
The Imposter Roster (36:58)
Yes!
Michelle (36:59)
Ooh, and then you run into all these like roadblocks like what do you mean I can't have just a general corpus that's accessible from any flow? Like, what are you talking about? I've got to repeat all this. Anyway, we were about six months down that road before ChatGPT came out. So thankfully Yeah.
The Imposter Roster (37:13)
Yeah, yeah,
and then I just said, bye-bye, dialogue flow. Bye-bye.
Michelle (37:18)
Yeah, and it was but it was
I you know, we both went through that same thing and I just said, just keep failing and I can help you through it. And both of us would just sort of
The Imposter Roster (37:29)
You should.
Michelle (37:29)
fail together and be like, Well, that conversation was a whole disaster and trying to
The Imposter Roster (37:34)
Yeah
Michelle (37:35)
figure out, you know, and looking at it though, but but failing for the sake of failing isn't what I'm saying. It's you know, two things. One, push yourself in directions that you don't think
The Imposter Roster (37:42)
Yes, yes.
Michelle (37:43)
that you would go.
Because
The Imposter Roster (37:45)
Yes.
Michelle (37:45)
you will learn there. But two is you have to be really, really introspective about what went wrong. Like what did you fail at? It can't just be like, you know, for us, well, for us in that situation, it's sort of like, well, the product is just bad. The product was just not well documented. but it was, but it was like, well, what are we not figuring out? And I think it led us to learn a lot more.
About the nuances of building conversations of what aren't we anticipating that people might ask? Or what question is this particular flow or scenario begging here that we wouldn't have thought of. And putting yourself in a position to just do it and don't be afraid of failure, be excited about failure, be introspective about what went wrong, is the best advice that I can give everybody. And do it over and over.
You know, I know there's the whole thing, you know, doing what is it? Like the definition of I don't remember, I'm gonna screw this up. Yeah, is like doing the
The Imposter Roster (38:43)
the definition of going crazy or something is, yeah.
Michelle (38:46)
same thing a hundred times and expecting a different result. You know, I'm not saying do the exact same thing over and over and over again, but keep
The Imposter Roster (38:52)
Right.
Michelle (38:53)
pushing and don't be afraid of failing and don't sit there on the third or fourth failure and be like, I'm never gonna get this. No, keep failing. You will fail your way to success.
The Imposter Roster (39:02)
Well, that's kind of like failure is not an option. Yeah, is.
Michelle (39:06)
Yeah, it is. It's a really good one sometimes. Like
The Imposter Roster (39:09)
Totally agree. Well, I would have to say that given your experiences across the board and you having your own way to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and especially at this stage of your life, this stage of your career, being part of a Pulitzer.
prize winning team to boot.
Michelle (39:33)
A long time.
The Imposter Roster (39:36)
Even so, it is very safe to say that it's your time to step off that roster. So I think we should raise a glass to you, Michelle Collins, and toast
Michelle (39:50)
Well thank you.
The Imposter Roster (39:53)
your brilliant and I'd probably say dynamic because this is how you are dynamic exit off of
the I don't know how you're going, but it's going to be something technical probably. And we're all going to go, you can do that. Yeah, you can. So congratulations for bouncing yourself right off that roster.
Michelle (40:13)
Thank you very much. Much appreciated.
The Imposter Roster (40:17)
And thank you everyone for watching this particular or listening to this particular episode and hearing how some of our bright minds are working today. So thank you, Michelle, for taking time to talk to me. I know you have a jam-packed schedule. So thank you very much for making time to speak with all of us. And it was fun.
Michelle (40:37)
Yeah, thank you. This was a really great conversation. I really appreciated it.
The Imposter Roster (40:41)
It was fun. Because especially since I know, like just I know you and it's like, yeah.
This is a person you want to interview. So thank you so much for your time and thank you to everyone who's listening for taking your time to listen to all of us talk about the reality of feeling less than but then there's always a way out. So thank you everyone. Bye bye.